Reporting New Trusts

(Jenny O'Neill) #21

Yes, please see my earlier reply on this thread - it does appear as if you need to register for a separate Gateway account each time you are registering a new trust or estate as a non-agent. I part-registered one trust and there was no option to create another one under that Gateway account. I couldn’t be bothered to apply for each outstanding trust individually. I am hoping this is not the case when the agent facility is finally up and running…

Jenny O’Neill
Royds Withy King

(Lucy Orrow) #22

I am liaising with HMRC next week to test the agent portal. I would assume that as agents we have only one login and can register numerous trusts, as we do under Self Assessment currently. Any other questions let me know by COB Tuesday.

Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(Carlton Collister) #23

Thank you for the offer.
HMRC’s recent webinar helpsheet of the TRS noted in Q&A format:
Q: The regulations state that where the individuals (or some of the individuals) benefitting from a trust have not been determined a class of beneficiaries can be provided. What does determined mean in this context?
A: We interpret this to mean ‘identified’, or named. Where there is only a class of beneficiaries, when a benefit crystallises, for example where the trustee makes a distribution to a beneficiary, we would expect the individual(s) benefitting to be named at that point.

Can HMRC therefore advise that if there is a class of beneficiaries, say the settlor’s children and remoter issue, that as the legislation only applies from 26 June 2017, it is only beneficiaries who benefit after that date that need to be named?

Separately, regulation 45(5)(g) requires “the full name of any advisers who are being paid to provide legal, financial or tax advice to the trustees in relation to the trust”. I have not seen mention of this from HMRC’s webinar. Will there be a facility for this information to be reported and does it only apply to advice provided from 26 June 2017?

Carlton Collister
landtax llp


I registered a foreign trust on govt gateway. HMRC is sending the passcode to the foreign address (Liechtenstein). It has been more than 2 weeks and no passcode has been received. There is 28 day expiry of the code.

Sameera Nathoo

(Lucy Orrow) #25

Thanks Carlton, I’ll see what I can find out.

Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(James Sawers) #26

I’m just getting to grips with the Trust Registration Service and having been attempting to register trusts of which I am a trustee (as I have been told by HMRC that although the agent registration service is not live yet, individual trustees can and should register their trusts).

I have come across 2 immediate problems:

  1. From what I understand from the HMRC Talking Points webinar, all potential beneficiaries of a discretionary trust who are alive should be individually noted on the register. It is not possible to enter the details of a beneficiary without their NI number. Do I have to contact every possible beneficiary that is alive and ask them for their NI number? What if I don’t want to alert them to the fact they are a potential beneficiary? What if they won’t give me their NI number? What if I can’t trace them?

  2. The service goes on to ask “Is the beneficiary in receipt of income at the discretion of the trustees?”. I assume that if the beneficiary has not received any income (because the trustees have not exercised their discretion to pay them any income) then the answer to this question is “No” - when that box is selected, the form goes on to ask what is the fixed share of income that the beneficiary receives - should I put 0%?

Lucy, perhaps you can raise these points, please?

James Sawers
MacDonald Oates LLP

(Lucy Orrow) #27

will do. I think point one u do have to get NI numbers.

point 2 is interesting - i’ll see if I can ask.
Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(Mark Woolley) #28

I can also see practical difficulties obtaining NI numbers for potential beneficiaries. Why should they supply an NI number, if they have never received income from the trust and very probably never will.

Also obtaining details of settlors could be similarly difficult especially for flat management companies where the advice according to HMRC, as posted on the CIOT website at is
What details do we provide for a Flat Management Company?
The settlors are the leaseholders who make the payment under S42 LTA 1987. We appreciate that the number of settlors that can be shown on the form is limited, so the details of the additional settlors can be provided to HMRC in writing.
The amount settled will be the cash paid under S42 LTA 1987.
The beneficiary is likely to be the property in question, which can be recorded under the beneficiary type ‘Other’.
I am aware of a case where there are 1,200+ leaseholders; the chances of obtaining all the settlors details would appear to be remote. Also, I would have thought the beneficiaries are the settlors, but if the property can be entered at least that will be simple.

Mark Woolley
Price Bailey LLP

(caroline.cummings) #29

I think that some some of these queries are answered by the most recent HMRC Talking Points webinar (which was on 8 September), eg re providing NI numbers and how to deal with flat management companies.

Caroline Cummings

(nicholas.sewell) #30

I need to transfer assets including stocks and shares ISAs to a settlor interested settlement. I understand that holdover relief does not apply to a settlor interested settlement but if the assets transferred are ISAs is that deemed disposal exempt because it is an ISA? ( I appreciate it can’t continue to exist as an ISA once transferred to the settlement!)

Nicholas Sewell
BEVIRS Solicitors.


I too am an individual trustee - the answer to the first question on the HMRC on line process is crucial. Since the trust settlement assets in this case derive from a deceased estate but the trust was not technically established BY the DoV (Discretionary Trust established in a separate document -without referring to DoV - and dated one day before DoV) one is forced down a route of giving the answer that the trust was established by a living settlor - following this pathway to its conclusion there is no opportunity to refer to the source of settlement funds and the special IHT/CGT provisions. relating to the trust fund ie from the estate of the will testator, varied by DoV,
but “settled” by the original will beneficiary. Any comments appreciated?

Hugh Fordham

(Lucy Orrow) #32

Carlton, Your first question re beneficiaries is going to be passed up the chain, as it is a technical query. The second one I think refers to a section where it asks for people other than trustees who ‘influence’ (i think that was the wording) the trust. Again I am seeking clarification this is where you’d put other advisers. Otherwise, I did not see a screen to complete with this information.

Each page does require all boxes to be complete before moving on so you will need all relevant information upfront.

I’ll let you know when I hear more.

Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(Lucy Orrow) #33

Can’t you call it a Will trust then? this was an option or does it not fit your scenario?

Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(Lucy Orrow) #34

Hi James, I am seeking clarification re NI numbers.
Q2 - it is basically asking if it is a discretionary or IIP trust.
under a DT the beneficiary ‘would’ be entitled to income at their discretion - so tick yes - if they were to receive any.
If you tick no - that’s why it’s asking for a percentage because it would be an IIP and so all income should be paid out according to that beneficiaries share.

does this make sense?

Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(Julian Cohen) #35

You can call it what you like, but if it is a trust made inter vivos you’ll be driven down the path of screens for inter vivos relevant property trusts.

Julian Cohen, Solicitor

(Julian Cohen) #36

Lucy, No.

By its wording question 2 asks whether the beneficiary actually receives income by the exercise of the trustees’ discretion, not whether, if any income were received by this beneficiary, the procedure for doing so would be by the trustees exercising their discretion. In other words, the question does not in fact ask whether the beneficiary is a discretionary beneficiary or a beneficiary under an interest in possession. Maybe HMRC would like to ask that, but they don’t. Perhaps they should. Since we don’t know what they want to know we can only speculate. Why do they have to be so obscure?

Julian Cohen, Solicitor

(James Sawers) #37

Hi Lucy

Thanks very much and yes, it does. I thought that was the case but it is good to have clarification. The question is not worded very well.

As to NI numbers, my main concern is that I cannot enter the details of a beneficiary at all without their NI number. I can foresee that I may not be able to get NI numbers for all beneficiaries - there is no obligation on potential beneficiaries to give me their NI number. Having slept on it, I have decided that I will just have to write to HMRC separately with such information that I do have (as the Talking Points webinar does suggest writing in to give information that can’t be submitted online).

Out of interest, I was looking at a standard nil rate band discretionary trust of which I am a trustee. The class of beneficiaries includes the widow, children and remoter issue of the deceased and spouses/widows/widowers of children and remoter issue. I can identify the following beneficiaries: 1 widow, 3 children, 11 grandchildren and 5 spouses of children and grandchildren - making a total of 20 potential beneficiaries. I can imagine that the grandchild’s spouse might wonder why I need their NI number and be reluctant to give it to me.

James Sawers
MacDonald Oates LLP


I don’t think it is a will trust per se as it was set up separately as a new discretionary trust nearly two years after the deceased died.
Hugh Fordham

(Lucy Orrow) #39

ok - i’ve raised the point and asked if the wording can be adjusted. many thanks
Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

(Carlton Collister) #40

Thank you for referring my questions to HMRC and I look forward to their response.

Carlton Collister
landtax llp