They are two separate registers so it may be that they haven’t yet released the Estate Register update functionality.
Maxine Higgins
Citroen Wells
1 Like
Hi Diana,
Are you logging in to the Estate register page - there are different ones for each. As mentioned above, my attempt to update for a Trust didn’t work and tbh I hadn’t thought about updating Estates as Q20 only asks about Trusts.
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
Hi LAnne,
That is correct. The new directive came into effect in January this year but there is not yet a requirement to register all trusts, as they are still working out what ‘all’ means. there has been a consultation and it seems the new date is March 2021.
We do charge and obviously this is up to each individual/firm. No decision yet made on non income producing but I would suspect the same fee as it is still work required to be undertaken.
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
UPDATE - I have now just tried to update another registered Trust via the portal. this is the message I received. Please note that we have a 64-8 in place for this client.
Sorry, you cannot access this trust
One of the trustees will need to complete the next two steps so you can maintain the trust online on their behalf.
- Trustee needs to claim the trust A trustee needs to log onto the Trust Registration Service using their Government Gateway account. The account they use must be an organisation account, not an individual account.If they do not have an account, they can [register for one here.]
The trustee needs to correctly answer questions about the trust so HMRC can prove the connection between the trustee and the trust.The trustee must complete this step before you can request authorisation from them to maintain the trust. - Trustee needs to authorise your online access the trust Through Agent Services you can create an authorisation link to send to the trustee.The trustee needs to use the same Government Gateway organisation account used to claim the trust to approve your request.If you need help with the service [contact the trusts helpline.]
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
The requirement for the lead trustee to engage with HMRC online to approve the agent relationship was my fear from how this looked set to work from the steps above.
Where the trustees have engaged an agent in order to undertake reporting (and whether or not HMRC actually link the self assessment 64-8 to the record is another story) the TRS linking is now likely to require the lead trustee to go and create a Government Gateway account for the Trust itself to then approve the agent relationship where one doesn’t already exist.
However, the whole point of a client engaging an agent for tax affairs is so they don’t have to create an account themselves or liaise with HMRC in the first place. What are the chances this trustee will actually pass the fact check too if they have essentially engaged an agent for their affairs more generally?
As such, i can see situations whereby the agent will create an organisational Gateway Account for the trustee on their behalf, and simply ask the trustee to forward any HMRC communication back to them, somewhat circumventing the whole point of this.
In our situation we also have hundreds of trusts that we originally registered where we were a trustee, but under our agent Gateway Account. In order to now access these records, we need to go and create hundreds more Gateway Accounts to then authorise ourselves to deal with each trust as agent. All the ones I have tested so far (where I know a 64-8 is in place for self-assessment) don’t seem to allow access. Unless i am missing something?
Duncan McGowan
Stevens & Bolton LLP
2 Likes
Hi Lucy
Thank you for your reply to me of 28 April. I was logging into the estate register page.
With regard to Q20 on the tax return, I’m not sure it does only relate to trusts. Although it refers to the Trust Register and uses the word trust, in the notes below the question it also refers to personal representatives.
I have also tried to manage my client’s trust (on another matter) and have come across exactly the same problem as you. I am one of the trustees in this case so I thought I might be able to deal with it by creating my own account and authorising my firm to make the changes, but I can’t find a way of doing that because the “manage your trs” page says you have to use the ID used at registration, which was my firm’s ID.
It is so disappointing that we seem to be back here again after the original trs fiasco.
Diana Smart
Gordons LLP
Success! I have managed to declare on the TRS that there are no changes to a trust. It is a palaver though.
I had to get an ID in my name as trustee of this trust, then go to the manage your trust registration service to “claim” the trust by answering various questions. I could have managed the trust personally at that stage but decided to go through the agent authorisation route to see how it works. The next step was therefore to log back into the manage your trs section as agent, and then find my way to the page for seeking authorisation from the client. I was then given a link which my client (me) had to follow to complete the authorisation. As agent I was then able to access the trust record and confirm that no changes were needed. Phew!
One of the problems is finding the right page for each of these steps. There are so many different routes to various types of HMRC authorisation and record access now that I found I just had to keep going back to the start to get to the right place. That is going to make it difficult to explain to trustee clients what they need to do. I wish I had kept screen shots of each stage. Maybe next time…
Diana Smart
Gordons LLP
1 Like
I posted reporting the same message (albeit that for some reason this wasn’t published on the forum) and like the writer, we have been appointed as agents for the trust in question.
This reminds me of the bad old days when the TRS originally started, with registrations having to be done by trustees as opposed to agents.
Was this expected? Is there no alternative but to go through the rigmarole HMRC are proposing?
Paul Storrie
Storrie & Company
1 Like
Well done Diana, I’ll be interested to see if there is any come back on Box 20 not being ticked.
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
Question: my colleague tells me that you now have to provide an NI number for trustees in all cases. No option to give a passport number (which we usually have on file for AML)? Anyone else had this issue?
Cindy Chaplin
Larking Gowen
Hi Cindy,
Not that I am aware of and surely if you have non-resident trustees this may not be possible. I thought, when it asks for NINO, you say ‘No’ and that’s when it gives the passport option… it’s been a little while since I’ve done one however, so happy to be proved wrong.
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
What sort of fee is everyone charging for dealing with registration of a Trust
Lucy Leach
Ditto, so maybe just my memory failing me!
Cindy Chaplin
Larking Gowen
Hello everyone. I’ve just completed a new registration of an existing trust and this was the message at the end.
One of the trustees will need to complete the next two steps once the trust’s UTR has been received. You will then be able to maintain the trust online on their behalf.
- Trustee needs to claim the trust - A trustee needs to log onto the Trust Registration Service using their Government Gateway account. The account they use must be an organisation account, not an individual account.If they do not have an account, they can register for one. The trustee needs to correctly answer questions about the trust so HMRC can prove the connection between the trustee and the trust.The trustee must complete this step before you can request authorisation from them to maintain the trust.
- Trustee needs to authorise your online access to the trust - Through Agent Services you can create an authorisation link to send to the trustee.The trustee needs to use the same Government Gateway organisation account used to claim the trust to approve your request.
So this backs up previous discussions about not being authorised to do any online adjustments without Trustee registration.
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
Hi.
I note Q20 states:
“Tick this box if there have been any changes or additions to the people associated with the trust, and you’ve provided the updated details on the Trust Register or you’ve confirmed on the Trust Register that there have been no changes to the trust.”
This suggests every year we have to log into the TRSand confirm no changes (or obviously advise of changes via TRS)
I emailed the digital service team and they confirmed that no change declarations ARE required annually.
Considering agents do not really wish trustees registering gateway accounts, and 64-8 in place, it would be much easier if box 20 can say tick to confirm changes reported via TRS OR there are no changes. This would avoid all the set up until absolutely necessary.
I have suggested this on the HMRC forums, and also replied to the service team at HMRC on this point. It would be good if STEP, etc could push HMRC on this point, or agree not ticking the box for 19/20 Returns will not cause issues going forward.
In the meantime what are agents doing? Registering all their trusts for gateway accounts and confirming no changes on TRS or not ticking and adding a white space (as per the last few years Tax Returns) to confirm no changes?
Appreciate eventually trustees will have to create an online account so ‘bite the bullet’ could be a view, but it seems a lot of work to me when a tick box on the return to confirm no changes makes sense all round.
Hope to hear some members views on here. Thanks
Nick Edgley
Whiting & Partners
1 Like
Hi Nick,
So the miscommunications from HMRC continue. I am currently not ticking the box and putting a WSN to say no changes. Setting up a trustee account is not easy, as I had to help a trustee do one last year.
I think for new trusts I will try to get them to set up an account but for some existing ones, not currently unless required because of changes.
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
1 Like
I have absolutely no confidence that either the TRS or the ERS will change their policies. I imagine yearly visits to their site by each of us for every trust or estate we administer is all we can
expect. The TRS and ERS service have from the start had no desire to make things easier for agents, and I see no reason why they should start now.
Julian Cohen
Simons Rodkin
1 Like
UPDATE - there is a brilliant article in this weeks Taxation Magazine Issue 4744, by Helen Thornley which goes through in some depth the problems, processes and updates for the Trust Register. Well worth a read if you can access it.
and updated guidance on Gov.UK https://www.gov.uk/guidance/manage-your-trusts-registration-service
Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP
1 Like
I have asked Helen to clarify the question 20 aspect to a ‘no changes’ declaration white space/tick to confirm none. But I don’t hold much hope.
One trustee has told me their gateway account shows the update to TRS is not yet available…
The push for opening Gateway accounts continues with this and the 30 day reporting for CGT.
Nick Edgley
Whiting & Partners
Well done Diana - I went through the same process today and by the end of it, felt like I had run a marathon! One of the key things is to remember to sign out of the HMRC page each time, as, if you don’t, you end up getting stuck in the previous action - something to do with ‘cookies’ I think.
Julia Strike
BDB Pitmans LLP