Trust register (again!)

Its unbelievable the amount of time needed to register, even simple trusts!
Two - three hours at least, even with ALL the info at hand! - a few more if info is missing

Sameera Nathoo

Just received alert from HMRC

Trusts Registration Service registration deadline for new trusts extended

From: HM Revenue & Customs

The deadline for new trusts to register is now 5 January 2018

Following feedback from agents and stakeholders we are pleased to announce the Trust Registration Service (TRS) deadline for new trusts has been extended further from 5 October 2017 to 5 January 2018.

Trusts which have incurred a liability to income tax or capital gains tax for the first time in the tax year 2016 to 2017 will need to complete registration on the TRS by no later than 5 January 2018. This extension is only for the first year of the TRS.

The deadline for existing trusts to register on the TRS will remain unchanged at 31 January 2018.

The TRS online service replaces the 41G (Trust) paper form, which was withdrawn at the end of April 2017. This is now the only way trusts and complex estates can obtain their Self-Assessment Unique Taxpayer Reference.

The service will provide a single online service for trusts to comply with their registration obligations.

Sameera Nathoo

Does anyone have this problem?

I have completed a registration, but unable to submit because the form does not recognise the country typed in the country of issue box below. It’s happening for ALL addresses required i.e. settlor’s and beneficiaries’.

No drop-down box is appearing, the red box does not go away! :angry:

Is there a technical issues # or email for HMRC to report these type of problems?

(screenshot removed?)

Sameera Nathoo

Reply for Sameera - frustrating isn’t it?

The extra month for new trusts to be registered will be useful for professional agents often spending hours to satisfy the TRS needs of each of their clients. I know the ATT has lobbied for an extension to this deadline - many other organisations or individuals may have done so also. I still feel that some of the 20% of UK trustees who self-administer (without an agents help) existing trusts may well get caught out by the 31 January 2018 deadline because hmrc have not tried to contact them. I would state that hmrc ought to be writing to trustees who habitually pay tax but do not have an hmrc SA account for the trust and hmrc ought to be flagging up a TRS registration message on SA account of those trustees who do have a SA account for the trust. This would be reasonable. I feel that without this behaviour from hmrc many existing trustees will be caught out by the 31 January 2018 deadline because they may not address the 2016-2017 tax form filling duties until close to 31 January 2018. Thanks to Andrew Mortimer for a useful list of contacts regards TRS problems.and complaining about them.

Regards Sameera’s problem with the country box, don’t you just hate inflexible, authoritarian forms? I have found that (for the trustee section of TRS) entering “UK” for a country where instruction tells you to enter UK for a passport country of issue flags up an error, so I can sympathise with Sameera. United Kingdom is required in this case. Again, there is no drop-down box, so Sameera’s problem could be as simple as form refuses to recognise the country in the manner she has entered it. I find the form limp and wet, as well as inflexible. For instance, why three boxes for every name, one of boxes being optional? This is stupid. There should be one box for each name. Instruction should be “Enter name in box below, as per birth certificate. Failure to do so will lead to imprisonment.” That is a simple, clear, reasonable instruction that focusses minds. Three boxes for every name (one of which is optional) is ridiculous. And form keeps “hanging” when you try to use it. I have not had problems with addresses yet (all UK) but then again, I haven’t risked trying to submit yet!

For beneficiaries without a NINO I give a passport number, which is fine. But I also have to give an expiry date, which I don’t understand if each passport number is unique. But then I also have to give an address for the same beneficiary. This is frustrating because if beneficiary does not have a passport, address is sufficient on its own. I will now be forced to re-enter the address every time the beneficiary moves house, even though hmrc have a unique, in date, passport number. And I will be responsible for doing this, doubtless on pain of a fine if I do not. However, I think Sameera’s point about is it OK to only enter an address for a beneficiary, for the time being, if this is all you currently have, is a very good one. I would suggest this will be perfectly OK if form can then be submitted. At a future year you can amend and add details if they are to hand. I would suggest that Sameera has made a good call here, although I stress that I am neither qualified nor authorised to give advice. Sameera can read guidance for the form to see what to do with the passport boxes for a deceased settlor. (Include NINO where possible AND put deceasedyyyy in passport number box AND put date of death as dd/mm/yyyy in passport expiry date box!!!)

Sameera flags up an excellent practical twist regards what to enter for assets under MONEY when a trust has been “seeded” with a small amount at inception and other assets added later. Sameera says form not user friendly here. This is very polite. Through experience form design here is precisely the kind of thing that happens when a form is written by someone who has not got a practical clue about what they are doing. It adds fuel to the “not fit for purpose” claims and the “throw form out and start again” demands. 32 pages of guidance, remember, and not a sniff of what to do under these circumstances. A proper conundrum. The trustees (as opposed to agents) form asks for “Include all of the assets settled into the trust and their values when the trust was established. Any future changes to assets should be made using the SA900 Trust and Estate tax return.” so it would appear that ONLY “seed” money is asked for, at establishment date of trust (which is often going to be detailed in trust deed). But I do not know if agents form is similar. If it is then surely agents do similar and solely put “seed” money down on the online TRS and refer to any additions to the trust by filling in a SA900 (which does indeed ask the question about trust additions) for the appropriate period, which will likely be 2016-2017 if other assets added soon after trust established. Incidentally, when I was a boy, the terminology was about assets settled onto trust, not into trust, but never mind. (That was a long time ago)

So just the “small” initial settled fund I would suggest goes in the box and at no stage do you have to give any kind of current value for any type of asset (at least for trustees form). Maybe agents form is similar.

No capital dispositions from trust are asked for either. A few years ago you had to detail these to capital taxes office, so you would have year-by-year paperwork showing the depletion of a trust and capital value of the residue on each disposition. But now you don’t even do that, provided no IHT is payable. But everyone will have to find initial capital values on establishment of trust - maybe from a 41G form! This could be decades old information. Paperwork, paperwork paperwork. Records, records, records. “I’ve got mine - have you got yours?”

But it does appear that hmrc are not interested in keeping tabs on capital asset dispositions from trust because online form does not ask for them and SA900 does not ask for them (I give them with SA900 tax return for completion anyway). This seems intuitively odd to me. A new service, all about stopping fraud, and hmrc do not ask for chapter and verse on capital dispositions. I don’t get it.

Of course the asset list is not helpful. I always avoid ticking an “OTHER” box, where I can. Maybe it is paranoia. I don’t want to see what hides behind the “OTHER” checkbox. “SHARES” box is fine. But what about that other common collective equity investment from yesteryear, the UNIT TRUST? (Forerunner of the OEIC). I put mine under “SHARES” (hey, it’s a collective equity investment of ordinary shares, so it is like shares) and described it fully as the correct title (at the time) unit trust, and the correct kind of units. But I have no idea if I have done this correctly, just like Sameera, because the guidance does not explain it. Maybe a unit trust is “OTHER”. Maybe I will get into trouble for doing it wrong!

I guess many agents will be spending hours on this, per trust. I have spent days on it for two trusts for which I am principal acting trustee - so Sameera is much more efficient than I am. Or has beneficiaries and parents of beneficiaries who reply more quickly to emails.

An insight into one way I am dealing with the ten beneficiary limit, but I imagine you are all miles ahead of me here. Where there is a class of determinable beneficiary (eg children of settlor and settlor is deceased) but this class has not yet received anything from trust and is unlikely to do so in future (because trustees are also the children of settlor so this is easy to find out, by asking myself) I choose to NOT name these people on online form but instead write with their details to hmrc. This then frees up more online space (three spaces in this case) for beneficiaries (who as yet cannot all be determined, eg “remoter issue”) to be entered online and who trustee will want to enter online (as they become beneficiaries) because trustee will want to keep up-to-date online record of the beneficiaries who the trustees are predominantly favouring as time moves on. I cannot envisage any hmrc objections. And it does focus online space for the most important beneficiaries. (But a few more births and I am stuck again). Seems eminently practical to me.

I predict that TRS and LEI requirements will cause the winding up of many older discretionary and other trusts. I have wound one up because all sorts of requirements were becoming too onerous and trust had partly outlived its original intentions. I still state that trustees are being unreasonably picked on by all these requirements.

Keep those form filling fingers flexible.

tmbrian

1 Like

I had the same problem for a number of days and informed HMRC of the error. It does now seem to working ok.

Edward Evans
Payne Hicks Beach

Which country are you trying to enter? United Kingdom seems to be OK but that’s the only one we have needed so far.

Ruth Barron
DWF LLP

I have included UK for issue of passport and Italy for residence address.
I did include a screen-shot in my post but it does seem to appear now…

I will try again.

Sameera Nathoo

The Q & A states that year of deceased can be entered in passport number.
And for passport expiry date, to include date of death.

Sameera Nathoo

Thanks, I am trying to get HMRC’s contact details for this. But can’t seem to find them in any of the posts here.
Could you give it to m please?

Thanks

Sameera Nathoo

I just spoke to their helpline to inform them of the problem, 0300 123 1072, and received an email saying someone would look into the issue. It took several days for an email to arrive in which they suggested I try deleting cookies and web history on my browser, try a new browser and also try a new computer… The problem seemed to resolve itself after a few days.

Edward Evans
Payne Hicks Beach

Thank you. I tried a different browser but it did not work.
At the end of the form, there is a space to send ‘any problems with the form’ which I did. I have received automatically generated reply by email that they will get back to me in 48 hours. Lets see.

Sameera Nathoo

I am in touch with HMRC regarding the technical issue with the country box in the form.

This is their email if needed.

HMRC online support <hmrcsupport@tax.service.gov.uk

Sameera Nathoo

Following reply received, but even though they say that it has been resolved, I tried the service again and I still have the same problem.

Sameera Nathoo
www.besttax.co.uk

Thank you for contacting HMRC Digital Services.

We experienced some problems with the service that you were trying to use. This has now been resolved which you can check by signing in again.

However, if you are still experiencing difficulties please reply to this message and tell us what happened when you tried to use the service, and the exact date and time that you tried.

Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience.

Kind regards,

(Name)
Digital Customer Support Team

Prior to the 17th Nov webinar, I have sent the team the following email.

team.agentengagement@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk

Dear Webinar team.

This is regarding trust registration service webinar on 17th Nov.

I am unable to submit the registration as the form does not recognise the country in the addresses.

The support team told me this morning that it has been resolved but I am afraid it is still now working.

Please, could you address technical issues like this in the webinar and tell us how the IT team is dealing with them? Even with the deadline extension, problems like these are causing more delays.
A further deadline extension would be appreciated.

Sameera Nathoo

Can I ask what others are doing with classes of beneficiaries in the trust deed? I note in the HMRC guidance that it says where the beneficiaries are a class, information for the individual beneficiaries still needs to be provided if the beneficiary can be named or identified (page 19-20). There must be a large number of trusts where the class of beneficiaries is the settlor’s children / grandchildren but the existence of the trust is not known by the potential beneficiaries (the settlor may not want them to know about the trust until, for example, they attain a certain age). Recording their details means that HMRC could contact them and disclose their interest in the trust. Beneficiaries may also (justifiably) want to know why we are requesting their passport number / NINO.

The guidance seems to contradict itself:
p19 - “A description of the class of beneficiaries can be used if the beneficiaries are for example yet to be born or it is uncertain who precisely is the beneficiary until a benefit crystallises i.e. where the trustee makes an actual distribution then at that point in time only will the name of the beneficiary be known which then needs to be reported on the TRS.

p20 (the example of John Smith and Jane Green) "Children and grandchildren are recorded as a class as they currently do not exist and also the charity should be recorded as a class as the name of the charity has not been identified.
When a child or grandchild is born then at that point in time he or she should be named on the TRS."

Are others recording details for all of (say) the grandchildren, or are they recording this as a class if none of the grandchildren have received a benefit from the trust? Under CRS, discretionary beneficiaries only need to be recorded if they have received a distribution from the trust.

Many thanks!

Thomas Barker
Charter Tax

My queries to HMRC recently - I have more than 10 properties in the trust and the register only allows for 10. Similar to beneficiaries, you have to write to Trusts, HMRC, BX9 1E

The system will NOT recognise duplicates. Tax Advisers and Lawyers will need to check who is registering the trust so that it isn’t done twice!

Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLP

The form not recognising country in the address has now been resolved.

However, I am getting error - 500 and unable to submit the form :unamused:

Sameera Nathoo

20 minutes ago at At 9:00 HMRC sent out 2 email Alerts

Register your client’s trust
http://links.govdelivery.com/track?type=click&enid=ZWFzPTEmbXNpZD0mYXVpZD0mbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwMTcxMTE3LjgxMDY0NjgxJm1lc3NhZ2VpZD1NREItUFJELUJVTC0yMDE3MTExNy44MTA2NDY4MSZkYXRhYmFzZWlkPTEwMDEmc2VyaWFsPTE3MTU0MDA0JmVtYWlsaWQ9YS5tb3J0aW1lckB0YWxrMjEuY29tJnVzZXJpZD1hLm1vcnRpbWVyQHRhbGsyMS5jb20mdGFyZ2V0aWQ9JmZsPSZtdmlkPSZleHRyYT0mJiY=&&&101&&&https://www.gov.uk/guidance/register-your-clients-trust

9:00am, 17 November 2017 First published.
If you’re a tax agent or adviser and your client has a trust with a tax
liability, you can register it online

Register your client’s estate
http://links.govdelivery.com/track?type=click&enid=ZWFzPTEmbXNpZD0mYXVpZD0mbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwMTcxMTE3LjgxMDY0NjYxJm1lc3NhZ2VpZD1NREItUFJELUJVTC0yMDE3MTExNy44MTA2NDY2MSZkYXRhYmFzZWlkPTEwMDEmc2VyaWFsPTE3MTU0MDA1JmVtYWlsaWQ9YS5tb3J0aW1lckB0YWxrMjEuY29tJnVzZXJpZD1hLm1vcnRpbWVyQHRhbGsyMS5jb20mdGFyZ2V0aWQ9JmZsPSZtdmlkPSZleHRyYT0mJiY=&&&101&&&https://www.gov.uk/guidance/register-your-clients-estate
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/register-your-clients-estate
9:00am, 17 November 2017 First published.
If you’re a tax agent or adviser and your client has an estate with a tax
liability, you can register it online.

One can only hope they are satisfied that they have sorted out all the
oroblems!

Andrew M Mortimer

Hi Tom - as I replied to Sameera, frustrating isn’t it?

The seemingly contradictory guidance (in the interminable questions and answers - how childish) I am using as part of my written complaint to hmrc. Guidance not published until October, it seems.

See post 44 for one way I am treating beneficiaries to try to keep under 10.

To reiterate, I reckon that if a beneficiary is determinable from trust deed (eg children of settlor and settlor is dead) but has not yet received any benefit then no need to name him/her, until the year they do receive benefit.

At same time any individual who has already received benefit (at any time) will need naming, even if they are part of a class and you have named the class because the class includes potential beneficiaries not yet known (eg “remoter issue”.). You will then add further remoter issue either as they are born or as they receive benefit - if intent is for a remoter issue potential beneficiary to become a beneficiary you might as well name him/her in year of birth, to avoid forgetting to do so later on.

But the solution when you have run out of ten named beneficiaries is to write to hmrc with details of the latest beneficiary additions! (this is for trustees section of TRS, and I am assuming that after trust is registered you can still have a maximum of only ten beneficiaries named at any one time.)

Any deceased existing beneficiaries can be deleted to free up space on form once registered, I am thinking.

The “letting beneficiaries know” is yet another quandary regarding this whole exercise. (I think security of personal information is also a big issue.) Where minor grandchildren/great grandchildren of settlor need to be named as beneficiaries I have asked the minor’s parents for passport details and stated why they are forced to give them. But I am all for beneficiaries at an early age being told what trust is all about whereas I appreciate you may have adult beneficiaries who are unaware (as yet) that they are benefitting from a trust and the settlor does not wish them to know, yet you still need NINO or passport details for this beneficiary. I would suggest trying to ask the person’s parent or guardian for the details in this instance. If parent/guardian does not know or shows no interest or quotes “privacy of data” then is it practicable to keep existence of payments from the beneficiary? (Or is it practicable having this person as a beneficiary?) The practical administration of trusts in such cases always revolves around communication and good family relationships!

Your criticism regards contradictory guidance is dead right. It amounts to “You must give details of a beneficiary when they first benefit, but you also must give details of a potential beneficiary when they are born.” Hopeless.

So, to save space, record (say) grandchildren as a class and name each one as a beneficiary in the year he/she first receives a payment from trust. (Until you get up to ten individuals)

When I queried verbally with hmrc this ten beneficiary limit I was told that “some football teams have been abusing trust structures”. Don’t know what relevance that has to individuals and trusts where benefits are likely to be kept within a family, but still.

And I don’t get involved with common reporting standards, thank goodness.

Because I have “played” with the form at length, I think there was a maximum of five classes of beneficiary that could be used. Maximum ten individuals across all classes. So splitting beneficiaries or potential beneficiaries up into sub-classes (spouse, children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, whatever trust deed states, etc) isn’t necessarily going to help you because you will run out of classes quickly, even if each class only has one or two beneficiaries to be named in it.

Hope you find the above practical.

tmbrian

Thank you Brian,

We are having to keep a master list to record which trusts need to report on the Trust Register, which need to report under CRS, which need to report under FATCA and which need an LEI. We also need a separate document reminding us of the different requirements under each one!

The good news is that the most recent HMRC webinar confirmed in the question and answer session that they agree with your view above: Where beneficiaries are named as a class, they only need to be reported individually if they receive a benefit. Otherwise they can be recorded as a class. I hope this has been recorded in writing on the Q & A but have not yet checked.

Thomas Barker
Charter Tax