CGT on UK Property Account

Having set up the account to notify HMRC of the CGT on the sale of the deceased’s home - it is constantly referring to trust rather then estate - although when the account was actually created it does say “the trust or estate’s account number is X…”

Is this ok and I can just read estate where is says trust or has the wrong account been set up?

All replies welcome as it is the fist time doing this!

Wayne raises two points which are only trivial in the sense that they are easily remedied by HMRC.

1 The first is the unnecessary struggle that attends anyone who is required to embark, for the first or only time, on an online form or procedure. You cannot see through until the end. It is in the interests of HMRC, one would have thought, to minimise the number of queries that consequently come their way, if not the user’s frustration. This is particularly so where the procedure does not merit the taxpayer incurring the cost of professional assistance however reasonable that may be.

I registered my first trust online but I first obtained with great difficulty a paper form SA404 so I could see what was needed at a glance and prepare. There is also an SA403 for a taxable trust. HMRC have either always had or have been forced to create a paper form after the CGT PPD debacle This is digital by default gone too far and bodes ill for MTD ITSA come 2024.

Remedy No 1 : the guidance is too short and too opaque and the help facilities too time-consuming and not available online. Get a grip!

2 The confusion within HMRC about trusts and estates is perhaps forgivable at basic level because some aspects of the differences have caused lively discussion even on here. But there is no excuse for those at the top who presumably at least sign off on instructions inn public guidance or the design of online processes. I am currently engaging on HMRC’s Community Forum (recommended by a contributor to this Forum). A slow online facility but the ignorance in the answers from official sources is lamentably hilarious.

My question was: “What legal authority does HMRC have for making any estate register in TRS to obtain a UTR?”. I referred them to TRSM27010 and said “As the MLRs do not apply what is HMRC’s legal authority for requiring an estate to register on TRS? HMRC cannot make things up however convenient”. But the dance goes on and those deputed to answer the questions are either so stupid or badly trained that they do not yet seem even to have cottoned on to the fact that the questioner is not someone’s Aunty Ada.

Remedy No 2: Make sure that those who answer the public’s queries know what they are doing. And speed up the replies.

Jack Harper

Dear Wayne,

When submitting an online report under the 60 day residential disposal rules for CGT, the Estate does not need to register. Instead it should be done under an Executors personal account and they can choose - ‘someone else’ one the first page. We have done this on a number of occasions and similarly for paper returns. We just send an executor signed form (instead of 64-8) with the paper form. HMRC notes are below. I hope this helps but yell if not.

Lucy Orrow CTA TEP
Lambert Chapman LLP

** If you’re reporting on behalf of someone else or an estate**

Use your own Capital Gains Tax on UK property account to report for someone else.

You’ll need proof you’re allowed to report on their behalf, such as a lasting power of attorney. If the person has died, you’ll need their date of death.

You cannot pay using your account if you’re reporting a gain on behalf of an estate as a personal representative (executor or administrator). HMRC will let you know how to pay after you report the gain.

Keep a digital or printed copy of the return for your records.

You cannot view or change a return that you’ve made for someone else online. Contact HMRC to request a paper return if you need to make a change.

There’s a different way to report your client’s Capital Gains Tax on UK property as an agent.

My foray on the Community Forum has concluded as follows:

"Posted about an hour ago by HMRC Admin 25

Please refer to Taxes Management Act: 1970:
Should this fail to answer your query, please telephone the Trust and Estates office on 0300 123 1072.

S54TMA is totally irrelevant. s74 refers to personal representatives but confirms that they act as alter ego of the deceased individual taxpayer. There is nothing in TMA that authorises estates to be registered on TRS. I will not be phoning Trusts and Estates as you suggest. I will be copying this conversation with its wholly inadequate over-simplistic and wrong answers and writing to HMRC as a concerned taxpayer about the issue itself and this sub-standard service."

Given my experience can anyone say this HMRC Service is worth using?

Jack Harper

Slightly off topic but regarding HMRC’s helpline, one of my clients called the helpline as shown in Jack’s earlier email. She had successfully claimed her trust but was unable to authorise me. She eventually hung up after …. wait for it…. TWO HOURS!! I can only think there are many problems and lots of people are calling them.