Most will have one from claiming the Trust Register, so yes.
My understanding is the same as Maxineâs - itâs acceptable (if not very satisfactory) to register your firm as an organisation, but selecting ânoâ when asked if youâre registering as an accountant or tax advisor. This seems to have been acceptable for other AEOI purposes and acknowledged by HMRC, though they wonât seem to confirm either way their official position on it.
Itâs all exceptionally poor and seems to have been dropped on accountants/tax advisors/lawyers as a the default because no one is quite sure where the responsibility is supposed to lie (other than âwith the entityâ generally).
James Heathcote
Sanctoras
Weâve had situations where Lead Trusteeâs Gov Gateway & ID has expired because it hasnât been used for 3 years. They used it last to claim the Trust & authorise us as the agent to maintain TRS. It has caused all sorts of problems that we havenât been able to resolve.
As for the AEOI register it is sooo confusing!
I too spent quite a while trying to decide what sort of filer I should be, until somebody else hearing my pain, looked over my shoulder & said that is not a mandatory field, leave it blank. So I did & I was able to complete registration without it.
Thank you all for the guidance. I have been able to set up a âspecialâ account for us to do this on behalf of clients. Iâm now working through our client list to determine those affected - thankfully not too many but still another piece of work to get done. Does anyone know if pension funds are caught? they have trustees and likely to have investment portfoliosâŚ.Iâm working on the basis that estates do not need to file, as not âtrusteesâ.
Thanks
Lucy Orrow
Lambert Chapman LLO
Lucy, I have seen guidance that suggests registered and HMRC approved pension schemes do not need to register but unapproved schemes probably do need to register.
Similarly, registered charities apparently only need to be registered until 31 December 2025 and then from 1 January 2026 are exempt (so there seem very little point in registering them if they were not already registered). Previously registered charities were exempt for FATCA but not for CRS so we did have a few grant making charities that paid grants overseas that we reported forâŚ.
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On a similar note, I cannot see that bare trusts (eg PI Trusts) are excluded from registration, and from memory, I do not think that they were excluded from FATCA. So can anybody confirm it is still the case that such trusts must also register for these purposes?
I have registered several bare trusts for minors that are under discretionary management - better to be registered, when not required than not registered when required.
Incidentally I fail to see how this will increase transparency for HMRC (one of their stated reasons given for this fiasco) since all the information required to register for AEOI is already on the Trust Register (unless they have a GIIN, in which case they are probably already registered and making returns).
Maxine Higgins
TC Citroen Wells.
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My thoughts exactly Maxine.
Did you get any notification after you registered? I did mine before Christmas and still have received no update. Iâve just logged back in and it is saying I havenât submitted any!!!
Lucy Orrow
Having gone through all the pages on my gateway, I have found the list of clients that I registered. It is then asking for a return to be submitted and this seems to be an annual requirement.
How to report Automatic Exchange of Information - GOV.UK
Iâm now not clear if I will need to file nil returns each year for these entities, having told them we wonât need to do anythingâŚor not.
notes are as clear as mudâŚ
Question 5
âAre you submitting any nil returns?â
Itâs not usually necessary to submit nil returns. You may have potentially reportable accounts whose balances fall below the relevant thresholds, meaning that thereâs nothing to report once youâve applied the thresholds.
In this case, it will be necessary to submit a nil return to make the election to apply the thresholds by selecting âyesâ to question 4. You can make a nil return voluntarily if you want. If you select âyesâ to question 5, the return will proceed to the final screens before submission.
Historically I only usually submit nil AEOI returns for my trusts the year after they have ceased to require a return i.e. they no longer make payments to any non-UK tax resident beneficiaries and thereafter I do nothing. To date this strategy appears to have worked as I have not received any automatic non-filing penalty notifications.
When I set up these new trusts I only registered then as FIs, I didnât create any account holders within any of them, as I do with the reporting trusts, so there is nothing to report.
We shall see what happensâŚ..
Maxine
TC Citroen Wells
No, we didnât get any notifications from HMRC in the way that we do after submitting an actual return, but the HMRC identification reference numbers being requested by various wealth management firms are available on your AEOI portal.
Hi Maxine - thanks for posting this, I have only just become aware of the requirement! Can you clarify what is meant by portfolios that comprise 50%+ of their income please?
Many thanks
Justin
It means where an entity (trust in this context) receives investment income (dividends and/or interest) from an investment portfolio under discretionary management, which in total comprises at least half of the trustâs total income. Interestingly rental income does not count as investment or passive income for this purpose.
regards
Maxine
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Hi we spent most of Christmas Eve adding trusts as FIâs as advised by HMRC. Every time we got to submitting we got an error message.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I thought it may be because a lot of people were accessing the system but it still seems to be doing the same. I have asked HMRC for advice but they said they will reply in 10 working days.
Any guidance much appreciated!
Thank you
Once a submission is made the account is effectively frozen for at least 24 hours before any new FIs can be added or amendments made to existing FIs or returns âin progress. The trick is to set up all the FIs under the âadd another FI â option, but not to actually âsubmit â or declare them until you have finished. If you try to access the account during that 24 hour period you will get an error message. This is very frustrating when trying to submit returns as they can only be done one at a time. If this was not what caused your error message then you will need to wait for HMRC to get back to you.
Maxine
iâm hoping that there will be guidance on the âreturnsâ. Iâve done my registrations but nothing further at this stage. Waiting for January tax chaos to disappear.
You shouldnât need to file a return (including a nil return) if all your settlors, beneficiaries and protectors are UK resident - a return should only be required if any are non-UK resident. In the case of beneficiaries, Iâve always taken that to mean a beneficiary with a quantifiable or vested interested, rather than simply a discretionary member of a class who hasnât received any distributions or benefits.
If you donât need to file returns, you shouldnât need to do anything further once youâve registered the entities and obtained their reference number. They could of course acquire a âreportable accountâ (e.g. a settlor or beneficiary becomes non-UK resident) in future years, which would likely require a return to be submitted then.
Secondary thought: itâs worth noting for these purposes that HMRC AEOI doesnât distinguish between whether itâs a reportable account under CRS (definition above) or under FATCA (distribution to a US person). So you could also have a reportable account for AEOI purposes if all your relevant parties are UK resident but are [lucky? unfortunate?] enough to be US citizens.
I think we can all agree this has been a really fruitful exercise and will achieve great results. Probably. Somehow. Maybe.
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Is anyone please able to clarify (ideally with links to the guidance) the registration position for:
-
Trusts with a trust corporation trustee BUT the income is NOT 50% from investments? Does having the corporate trustee mean itâs a TDT regardless of the investments held? And if a TDT without 50% Discretionary Fund Manager managed investments, is registration required?
-
Trusts with Lay trustees and private company shares with substantial dividends â as no corporate trustee or DFM, is registration required?
Many thanks
@BethC my thoughts (based more on how I trained people when FATCA first came in, rather than any quirks of this new requirement) are:
- Any trust with an FI as a trustee is itself an FI. And most corporate trustees will be FIs. So a trust which doesnât have discretionary fund management but which does have a corporate trustee fulfils one of the two criteria which would make it an FI, therefore I would expect it to register.
- A trust which has lay trustees and no discretionary fund management doesnât fulfil either of the criteria which would make it an FI, therefore itâs an NFE and I wouldnât expect it to need to register.
Those thoughts are âoff the top of my headâ so it would be kind if other forum members who see this differently could comment.
PS Iâve replied above only with reference to AEOI. Obviously different principles apply for TRS: indeed in both your examples I expect youâre registered because presumably you are paying income tax.